[閒聊] U of Michigan 給對岸學生的拒信

看板studyabroad (留學)作者 (人生到處知何似)時間14年前 (2012/03/14 14:25), 編輯推噓42(44286)
留言132則, 37人參與, 最新討論串1/1
在逛對岸論壇看到的,看完之後真的覺得誠信是一件很重要的事 不管是在學術界或業界亦然,個人行為「也許」會影響到一整個國家 文章有點長,有興趣的可以慢慢看完 ---- letter from a professor majored in ME,U OF MICHIGAN,US Dear xxx: I would like to inform you of the situation relevant to Chinese graduate students here, at least at our department, which makes it very difficult for us to accept graduate students from China in the future. Over about one year period, we have had 6 Chinese Ph.D. students quit their RAship and Ph.D. studies. The reason for them to leave was not that they could not continue, it was rather because they want to have a job now (a higher salary, with a hope that the companies will apply for their green card status. They came with thier promises to pursue their Ph.D. degrees, we paid tuition for them to take courses for their Master degree, and we taught and helped them in their research capabilities. Once they got their M.S. degree in Mechanical Engeering, because of the excellent job market in the U.S. at this time, it is relatively easy for them to find a job. In a way we felt that we were used as a step for those Chinese students to come here, and get their master's degree, then get their jobs. We pay approximately $45-50 K/year for each Ph.D. student, including the tuition, health insurance, various fees, lab and computer fees, and monthly salary, we also put a lot of time and efforts for them. They (most of them) also did good research work as assistants. However, we don't get credit because we don't produce PH.D's, which is one of our major purposes as an institution of high education. On the other hand, they have their particular interests which are also understandable, for example, financial pressure, and wishes to have their green card applications on the way asap. This situation also happened to my Chinese Ph.D.student. He is very talented and did a good job in research. However, after he got his M.S. in M.E., he resigned very recently. We still let him stay here presently (with salary) for one more month, otherwise he will have to repay his tuition, which is over $10K. Although we are very considerate for those students, the consequences are obvious: (1) It greatly degraded the reputation of Chinese graduate students who apply for admission. Some professors address those as "very unethical", "you really cannot trust them when they promise you to pursue their Ph.D. degrees; under your supervision", " you feel you are so stupid as cheated by your own student". It really created some resentment. Actually, I know, as of this time, there are a couple of more students looking for a job or already got a job offer, but not telling their advisors. They will quit at the last minute before they leave. This situation will certainly get backfired, and the damage will mostly be transferred onto the future applicants from China. (2) Some professors or research scientists have already made their decisions not to consider Chinese student applications. Although it should not and cannot be a policy, it is the individual's decision in selecting future. Ph.D. students with preference, and in my opinion, with good reasons. It will make it much more difficult for us to bring in Ph.D. students from China. For example, as you know, I was looking for one or two Ph.D. students later this year, and I have a vacancy for a Ph.D. student now. But I will not consider Chinese applicants. At the same time I feel truely sorry, for I know, especially many graduate students from Tsinghua University of very high qualifications sent email applications to me (and to other professors), including yourself. Now I have to inform you that please try your applications elsewhere, or other professors. In our department, many Chinese graduate students know me and we have a very friendly relationships. The faculty members know that too. One told me: "You try to help them, then they screw you up!" I spent time to write this email message, for your information and considerations, as to how this situation may be somehow alleviated. You may discuss this with your close friends and classmates, I am not sure you should broadly propagate this message. But I did present a fact and an opinion ------- 印象中版上好像有這家學校的faculty,若有不妥請來信告知,會立馬刪除 -- ※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc) ◆ From: 163.14.35.70

03/14 14:34, , 1F
謝謝分享 誠信真的很重要 出國並不是為了綠卡找工作!
03/14 14:34, 1F

03/14 14:38, , 2F
感謝台灣留學生前輩留下的好名聲 <(_ _)>
03/14 14:38, 2F

03/14 14:39, , 3F
大陸學生人超多,競爭非常激烈。想必去美國也是不擇手段吧XD
03/14 14:39, 3F

03/14 14:39, , 4F
前幾周為了準備UMich ME的PhD Phone interview
03/14 14:39, 4F

03/14 14:39, , 5F
和一位剛從UMich回來的學長(現在是教授了XD)聊了一下
03/14 14:39, 5F

03/14 14:39, , 6F
他說當年他去時,台灣學生幾乎都沒有fellowship
03/14 14:39, 6F

03/14 14:40, , 7F
通常就是RA和TA而已,而大陸學生都有
03/14 14:40, 7F

03/14 14:40, , 8F
話說這篇是不是有點久了?我去google有搜到2007的文章
03/14 14:40, 8F

03/14 14:40, , 9F
那位學長說"很多時候明明知道自己比其他大陸學生強,但學校
03/14 14:40, 9F

03/14 14:41, , 10F
還是只給他們錢,幸好UMich現在改了"
03/14 14:41, 10F

03/14 14:42, , 11F
不曉得美國教授的心中,會不會把Taiwanese跟Chinese想
03/14 14:42, 11F

03/14 14:42, , 12F
成一樣??
03/14 14:42, 12F

03/14 14:42, , 13F
thx for sharing~
03/14 14:42, 13F

03/14 14:42, , 14F
應該不會一樣,至少我認識的都分得清楚
03/14 14:42, 14F

03/14 14:43, , 15F
不會一樣 幫我寫推薦信的老師之一是OSU畢業的
03/14 14:43, 15F

03/14 14:44, , 16F
光是過去幾年,有些學校給大陸學生補助比台灣學生多這點
03/14 14:44, 16F

03/14 14:44, , 17F
他說他念的時候台灣學生都有念完 同屆大陸學生都念一
03/14 14:44, 17F

03/14 14:44, , 18F
就看得出他們分得清楚Taiwan和China了 XD
03/14 14:44, 18F

03/14 14:44, , 19F
半就跑了... 所以很多美國學校對大陸學生印象不太好
03/14 14:44, 19F

03/14 14:45, , 20F
雖然大陸補助有多一點 但是台灣和大陸錄取率差很多
03/14 14:45, 20F

03/14 14:45, , 21F
另外我上周第二次和UMich(快給我AD啦QAQ)Phone interview時
03/14 14:45, 21F

03/14 14:45, , 22F
那位美國教授還在問我的話中特別提到"Taiwan"
03/14 14:45, 22F

03/14 14:46, , 23F
所以我想他們是分得清楚的
03/14 14:46, 23F

03/14 15:26, , 24F
我上UIUC EE PhD,面試過程中有對岸學生對我敵意很強
03/14 15:26, 24F

03/14 15:27, , 25F
我想也許他不滿意教授收我而不收對岸學生吧
03/14 15:27, 25F

03/14 15:28, , 26F
我越來越能體會美國人不喜歡對岸學生人格的心情了
03/14 15:28, 26F

03/14 15:38, , 27F
美國教授應該是最清楚這些亞洲人的分別的吧
03/14 15:38, 27F

03/14 17:07, , 28F
值得深思啊~感謝台灣留學的前輩~我會努力的!
03/14 17:07, 28F

03/14 20:27, , 29F
謝謝分享
03/14 20:27, 29F

03/14 20:51, , 30F
真是自私......
03/14 20:51, 30F

03/14 20:53, , 31F
還有一種是拿錢過幾年就轉系...我遇到的例子是印度人
03/14 20:53, 31F

03/14 20:54, , 32F
結果隔年印度人錄取率就真的...
03/14 20:54, 32F

03/14 20:55, , 33F
一般有收台灣學生的學校應該分得清楚,至少我看系上文件
03/14 20:55, 33F

03/14 20:55, , 34F
都是分得相當清楚
03/14 20:55, 34F

03/14 20:55, , 35F
excellent job market in the U.S....看到這段就知道
03/14 20:55, 35F

03/14 20:56, , 36F
這封信的時間大概至少五年前吧...
03/14 20:56, 36F

03/14 21:21, , 37F
我猜這封信有點歷史了 因為目前job market......謝謝分享
03/14 21:21, 37F

03/14 21:25, , 38F
這種事二十幾年前就開始有了
03/14 21:25, 38F

03/14 21:26, , 39F
指終國學生的這種作為
03/14 21:26, 39F
還有 53 則推文
03/15 11:33, , 93F
因為涉及到利益問題。
03/15 11:33, 93F

03/15 11:33, , 94F
discrimiation與profiling在法律上差很大,生活中難分
03/15 11:33, 94F

03/15 11:34, , 95F
更正上行:discrimination
03/15 11:34, 95F

03/15 11:35, , 96F
我不懂這有甚麼好辯的。生活上難分是因為沒有牽涉到利
03/15 11:35, 96F

03/15 11:36, , 97F
益。但如果像是employment 之類的事情,如果有明顯證
03/15 11:36, 97F

03/15 11:37, , 98F
據,這都是違法的。尤其像這封信那麼明顯。所以說是謠
03/15 11:37, 98F

03/15 11:38, , 99F
言還比較可能。真實的話,一定鬧非常大。
03/15 11:38, 99F

03/15 12:37, , 100F
難說,系所可能為了避免爭議,事後淡化否認文件真實性
03/15 12:37, 100F

03/15 12:37, , 101F
U of Michigan的朋友說會替我去機械系所問此事
03/15 12:37, 101F

03/15 12:38, , 102F
就可知道此事到底是被河蟹的事實,有所本,或是謠言
03/15 12:38, 102F

03/15 13:33, , 103F
我也不懂這件事有甚麼好辯的? 這信是真是假跟事實上這種情況
03/15 13:33, 103F

03/15 13:33, , 104F
嚴重與否是兩件不同的事.. 很多事可以做不能說..會真的明白寫
03/15 13:33, 104F

03/15 13:34, , 105F
下白紙黑字的學校或教授不是太不敏感就是太不聰明了..
03/15 13:34, 105F

03/15 13:36, , 106F
請人去問到這信是假的又如何? 是真的又怎樣? 力氣花在值得的
03/15 13:36, 106F

03/15 13:36, , 107F
地方比較有意義一點...
03/15 13:36, 107F

03/15 15:40, , 108F
既然research做得很好 應該不至於不肯收中國的碩士班學生吧
03/15 15:40, 108F

03/15 15:40, , 109F
大學一定要有多少ph D. students才算有水準?哪門子道理?
03/15 15:40, 109F

03/15 20:52, , 110F
後來google了一下,我沒有證據。但這封信也同樣無法證
03/15 20:52, 110F

03/15 20:53, , 111F
明其存在。 願意相信這封信的就無視我說過的話吧。
03/15 20:53, 111F

03/15 20:55, , 112F
個人認為這封信有些疑點,其一是上面推文所述的歧視,
03/15 20:55, 112F

03/15 20:56, , 113F
其他疑點恕我不在這一一指出。
03/15 20:56, 113F

03/16 00:13, , 114F
這事台灣學生也有吧,只是對岸的較頻繁. 我當年進U of MN
03/16 00:13, 114F

03/16 00:16, , 115F
EE時, 前無古人(根據其他科系學長說在那一年前 有3-4年
03/16 00:16, 115F

03/16 00:17, , 116F
沒有直接收台灣的學生) 據說就是台灣學生集體轉學.
03/16 00:17, 116F

03/16 00:20, , 117F
另外 美國教授都會把台灣和中國分的清楚. 我曾經在網上
03/16 00:20, 117F

03/16 00:22, , 118F
看過document 幫助教授了解個國家的教育背景的不同點.
03/16 00:22, 118F

03/16 00:23, , 119F
第一 "說這封信是假的"跟"無法證明這封信的存在"是兩回事
03/16 00:23, 119F

03/16 00:24, , 120F
請勿混為一談 第二 沒證據就請不要說某件事是假的
03/16 00:24, 120F

03/16 00:24, , 121F
那個document是明大graduate school做的. 映像中,就是在
03/16 00:24, 121F

03/16 00:25, , 122F
就算如你所說是假的 沒證據的指控這在美國是很嚴重的
03/16 00:25, 122F

03/16 00:26, , 123F
幫教授要如何evaluate學生的gpa等等...
03/16 00:26, 123F

03/16 00:27, , 124F
所以我要說的是,你的行為多少都會影響你後面的人. 如果
03/16 00:27, 124F

03/16 00:29, , 125F
你的gpa很高,但表現不好,那麼你後面的學弟妹的錄取機會
03/16 00:29, 125F

03/16 00:30, , 126F
就會小了. 原PO的文章就有提清華.
03/16 00:30, 126F

03/16 09:06, , 127F
Michigan的同學告訴我:該系比較少看到中國的ME學生
03/16 09:06, 127F

03/16 09:06, , 128F
還有對台灣學生比較友善..
03/16 09:06, 128F

03/17 21:18, , 129F
當年UMich的官方聲明不是說這封是教授的個人意見
03/17 21:18, 129F

03/17 21:19, , 130F
不是代表學校嗎? 什麼時候變成這封是假的!!!???
03/17 21:19, 130F

03/18 11:18, , 131F
樓上一語點醒夢中人
03/18 11:18, 131F

03/18 12:57, , 132F
一開始不就說 來自教授的信嗎? XD
03/18 12:57, 132F
文章代碼(AID): #1FO3dC7t (studyabroad)
文章代碼(AID): #1FO3dC7t (studyabroad)